S'har Demotion

There is a wedding event in game.

1. S'har tells everyone to be quiet because it is a serious event. The command is poorly worded and leads members to believe they cannot speak in guild chat.
2. Forney speaks in guild chat asking if anyone would like to group for an event she is organizing.
3. Mr Stabbykins tells her in guild chat "SHHH"
4. 3 other members IM Forney and tell her to be quiet with varying degrees of intensity.
5. Forney leaves the guild.
6. S'har informs the guild that they have been bad and that Forney left, causing many members to be angry because she is nice.
7. I invite all parties to a group except Forney because she won't join. I get all the details of what happened from her.
8. I repeated the details to everyone else and asked them if they have anything to add.
9. I inform everyone in the group that guild chat is OOC and ask if they have anything to add.
10. I give them all a warning and tell them that this event will not be held against them.
11. I remove everyone from the group except for S'har and spell out the above.
12. S'har mouthed off to me and left the group immediately, further proving to me that he is not suitable for dealing with drama in a good way.

This was a catalyst event to demotion. S'har was demoted because he has been demeaning to members in this case and others. In addition, this is not the first time his sensationalist attitude has escalated drama rather than deescalate it.

It was his choice to leave the guild. The fact that he posted to the forums about injustice in this case further affirms my decision.

Bottom line: S'har has contributed immensely to the guild but I will not tolerate the way he treated members under him. He lacks the tact necessary to be an officer in any social structure I will help lead.

Wanted to post this to add to why I agree with this decision. This happened earlier today. S'har was announcing to the guild this.
image no longer hosted — http://i60.tinypic.com/29lfgc1.jpg[/img]

My Response and his response.
image no longer hosted — http://i59.tinypic.com/i1iiaw.jpg[/img]

Didn't take it any further.

I er... hate to admit this... but S'har did brought some problems and missunderstandings between Ri'sari and other members of the guild. As happend to Ja'duath. Did not took screenshots about it, apologies, but the main problem was because of a miss understanding of S'har and Ja'duath over a letter, leading the Silent into confusion... S'har just left the group and said he wont help, seeing everyone was getting angry... S'har is a good person, that is for sure, but as Ri'sari said, he lacks the tact to deal with OOC problems.

From what I've gathered and I saw what stabby did. (this is NOT the first time he has goten a bit out of line and he had been warned.) I know S'Har can be headstrong, but i fail to see how he dealt with that just too much. I really didnt want to do this because i love the guild but there is just too much shit flying around. I wish you all the best. I am grossly disapointed with how this ended.

Seriously guys, the diplomat takes the weekend off and this is what happens? Sheesh...

All joking aside, I'd like to give my candid thoughts based on what I've seen so far.

1) I worry about the ripple effect this is going to have. From the outside looking in this seems like one of the managers was demoted and left for apparently no reason - the "banned" tag is already showing up on the forums and people are going to start asking questions.

2) While it may or may not be true that S'har's methods or actions may not fit the proper goings on in the company, it seems like that there's no real effort to instruct/teach. Screenshots above indicative, there was a great opportunity to have a "teachable moment" - a chance to say "here's WHY you shouldn't do that". We're all mostly adults here - I bet we all have those kinds of moments from time to time.

3) (and here's where I may be getting out of line): we have procedures we follow for these sorts of things. Managers must approve, etc. The damage has been done but we need to ensure we're following procedure even in the moments of snap-judgement. Was 2/3 of the managers online in agreement? Who were those managers?

IC, we can say my character wants to make sure all of the I's are dotted and the T's crossed. OOC... well... I don't want this to set a bad precedent, that's all.

I have to agree with ebongale here.

"Owner
Leads the direction of the guild.
May amend rules with ⅔ Senior Manager approval.
May remove a member with majority manager opinion in Manager's Office forum or in-game.
Promotes Managers to Senior Managers."

from the rules section that Ri'sari created says he needs more than just himself. So it worries me that the end result of a disagreement was immediate action that apparently was only approved my Ri'sari (if thats not accurate please correct me).

S'har and myself have become great friends and RP buddies, so this comes at a huuuge detriment to my continued play in RP situations and in the guild in general. this drastic action has me worries that Ri'sari is starting to blur the lines between his IC actions and OOC actions. To be honest IC Ri'sari is an ass....repeatedly being mean and disrespectful to members of the guild in RP. I get that thats IC but it's led to several misunderstandings and loss of RP enjoyment from members, myself included. I know that i have veered a little off topic here but it had to be said sooner or later.

Ri'sari didn't kick S'har. He demoted him and then S'har left of his own accord.

I know it wasn't him that kicked S'har, but it was his drastic and emotion driven decision that caused him to leave.

My comments about Ri'sari still stand though. That was a terrible way to handle it after preaching that we can't have managers that cannot remain cool under drama.

Procedure was followed.

I'm not blurring anything, Ahnyamar but I understand your concern.

If anything is to ripple from this it should be this.

Even if you donate months to the website, come to every roleplay event, have been a member since the beginning, and have a lot of friends in the guild; I will not tolerate berating other members no matter who they are.

IC Ri'sari is not OOC Ri'sari.

I was not there so I can't tell you how he handled it, but from what I've been told and what I've seen from S'har in the past, I understand why he came to this decision. I do not think this was a decision made in anger. I think it was simply the last straw. S'har is a wonderful fellow and I hope to spend more time with him in the future, but I think Ri'sari's decision that he was not fit to lead was based on past events showing, in his eyes, that S'har was not fit to lead.

Edit: Ah. Apologies. I did not see Ri'sari's reply.

"If anything is to ripple from this it should be this." if only you have that kind of control over situations.

Also after hearing S'hars side of the story....it leaves me wondering because if half of what he said was true, then Ri'sari was not right in his actions. I will admit there is some bias here but i also believe in a fair "trial" and hearing only one side really isn't accurate information.

You are welcome to believe what you want, Ahnyamar. I have no reason to carry out my actions other than in the best interest of the guild.

"You are welcome to believe what you want, Ahnyamar"

When presented with facts I weigh them evenly. i have heard both sides unlike most of the people here. I do not appreciate being dismissed so casually.

Then share them by all means.

This is what S'har shared with me when I asked him what happened. I has not there so I have no proof either side of the coin. but the stories do not add up and that is what concerns me.

"" I told everyone in guild chat to be serious at the claiming ceramony or I would report them. So people were talking in guild chat and Stabby told them to shh. I get informed Stabby made Forney quit. So I bring it up in manager chat to remove him, as it is his second strike. Everyone agrees but Ri'sari talks to Stabby and me. He tells Stabby it wasn't his fault and that I am to blame. So Stabby leaves the group chat and Ri'sari tells me he blames me for it. I tell him "Don't. Even. Start." And leave group chat. He comes back and tells me that just because of those three words I'm removed from managment. I get made and leave guild cause I'm tired of dealing with him. He gets all bitchy and Informs me that I don't handle situations correctly, am rude to players, and am just no nice. He then say that he talked to me about this before and I ask him when and he gives me the whole "You are obviously upset and I'm not going to say more" Thing. He removes me on the forums because I showed what happened. So, recap, I'm banned from forums and The guild. -end-" ""

Look all my biases aside, all my reservations for Ri'saris RP actions aside, in order to avoid a "ripple" like this thats why we need to have time to discuss these types of actions before they happen. the damage is done and the only real option is to just believe the GM and move on or question the action and possibly make more ripples. For the record I hate drama in all it's forms and I will try at my best to always avoid and defuse it but I also believe that if drama is necessary to find the truth and the best solution then for that instance it must be tolerated.

"He gets all bitchy"

*wince*

"" I told everyone in guild chat to be serious at the claiming ceramony or I would report them in the worst way possible. So people were talking in guild chat and Stabby told them to shh. I get informed Stabby made Forney quit. So I bring it up in manager chat to remove him, as it is his second strike. Everyone agrees but Ri'sari talks to Stabby and me and everyone else involved. He tells Stabby it wasn't his fault and that I am to blame after the others are dismissed. So Stabby leaves the group chat and Ri'sari tells me he blames me for it. I tell him "Don't. Even. Start." And leave group chat. He comes back and tells me that just because of those three words I'm removed from managment. I get made and leave guild cause I'm tired of dealing with him because we have talked about this before. He gets all bitchy and Informs me that I don't handle situations correctly, am rude to players, and am just no nice. He then say that he talked to me about this before and I ask him when and he gives me the whole "You are obviously upset and I'm not going to say more displaying the same lack of experience handling drama you were demoted for" Thing. He removes me on the forums because I showed what happened I left the guild and posted a flame thread on the site. So, recap, I'm banned from forums and The guild. -end-?" ""

You can't alter someone else's story like that. it proves literally nothing and is in poor form.
I posted that for everyone else to hear his story. not for you to alter his story....

Again I reiterate that I don't know what side is correct. I am merely trying to provide fair representation.

Ahnyamar wrote

Look all my biases aside, all my reservations for Ri'saris RP actions aside, in order to avoid a "ripple" like this thats why we need to have time to discuss these types of actions before they happen. the damage is done and the only real option is to just believe the GM and move on or question the action and possibly make more ripples. For the record I hate drama in all it's forms and I will try at my best to always avoid and defuse it but I also believe that if drama is necessary to find the truth and the best solution then for that instance it must be tolerated.

I personally believe we are much better off with what happened. It is something I have seen coming for some time.

I will not discuss demotions of managers with other managers before I do it for several very good reasons. I agree that discussion is necessary before execution in all things. That is the capacity Senior Managers will fill once there is more than one and it is precisely for this reason that I limit the guild leader's ability to do whatever-the-fuck they feel like when they feel like it - and even remove them if necessary.

While I cannot claim that i'm happy with how this played. I do want to thank you for allowing my to voice myself without shutting me down outright. It makes me feel better that there is a plan being put into place to address my concerns.

I know you are mad that your friend left the guild and likely has a hate for me. I am honest in saying that the anger is not mutual. He is a fun person, just not a leader. I harbor no regrets over my actions and take comfort in knowing I do the best I can. It does suck he left the guild over being demoted.

I know I have not been here long, or even know the people involved very well I was privy to a lot of what went down. I have had a chance to listen to almost everyone, but from what I have seen, heard or read I would like to put forward my 2c worth... well ok 5c blame it on inflation.

1. S'har did his thing in Guild Chat just before RP event - I saw it but pretty much ignored it as is my way. I did think it was half in jest at first but then realized it was serious but I still just ignored it.

2. A friend of mine left right away (unbeknownst to me at the time) because of that - in his words "Natzi behaviour from a Leader in GC", then later on Team Speak I learned Forney Wizard had left because she was told to SShhh in GC but more so that she was told off more harshly by whisper - she hasn't said who at least to my knowledge.

One person left because of this being in GC the second as a result from what was said in GC. My son has left to be with his friend, no bother they dont RP and its all good, he wasnt upset at all but following friend so no biggy there.

At first I was really mad, because I thought there was supposed to be Leadership discussion and 2/3 votes I think this is a good thing and best adhered to when possible. I calmed a lot when I read Ri'sari's post detailing what went down.

If there is anything we can take away from this is how our actions cause reactions and some quite far reaching. If we have a problem dont bitch or rage quit talk, walk away cool down and then talk to someone.

3. After we had learned what had gone down S'har went back into Guild Chat and reprimanded the whole guild and kinda went off saying "Bad guild, bad bad guild." So then a leadership issue went global and a lot of people got caught in the fallout. It would have been better to vent in management chat.

Although I feel for S'har I hope he learns from this and avoids a similar thing happening again, he seemed a really nice guy.

I feel also for Forney another really nice person, but talking this out with someone may have prevented the emotional level this thing escalated to.

If I was to offer advice to Ri'sari, having others involved at least as witnesses may have helped diffuse the situation, although in all truth there was a lot of emotion going on and so maybe it would have been oil on a fire. That said he is boss and can do what he likes, and then it's up to each individual to decide if they can follow that style of leadership or not.

I'm sorry for all the people who have had friends leave today, it really sucks when you get left behind but you have to make the decision why are you here.

I am here because I love the RP of the this guild, and I do think it is extremely well run and efficient and it is something I want to be involved in.

All I'm going to say is I agree with this decision, but perhaps screenshots and documentation might of helped. When a manager is demoted, no mater what you do, there is going to be a ripple event and people and managers will be divided some time there after, some saying protocol wasn't made and it was harsh, some agreeing with the decision.

I will not comment on how the situation was handled as that is done and over now and is history. But perhaps we should further discuss about the guild chat as that is what seemed to escalate the situation in the first place. The guild members and managers need to understand that the chat is largely OOC and anyone can talk whenever (hope this is right and I am not messing up).

I agree with ice-Eye.
We need to make it very clear the Guiid Chat is largely OOC (I have been known to RP in it, however, but it's mostly crack!play xD), and that people do NOT have to be quiet in GC when an IC event is happening---
those who want the GC off during IC events can shut it off!
There is a possibility that many do not know of that capability?

Personally I find general agreement amongst my peers. Without senior management I would feel much more comfortable with screenshots and documentation akin to Qa'Han. Even if it's little more than this is why the decision was made - it is much more clear and draws lines for current and/or future management to look on and learn.

Aside; I also agree that we should place more emphasis on guild chat being just that - guild chat. In character we use primarily say emote and the occasional yell. I actually normally run several chat tabs for this exact reason and will swap to keep up to date on guild chats.

On that same token though we should ensure regular members feel comfortable informing us as to this kind of behaviour. We can't give warnings or fix an issue if we don't know what's going on.

I have never been under the impression GC was restricted, it goes without saying that Chat Spam should be avoided out of consideration for people trying to keep an eye on GC. I will RP briefly in character just for fun or in an effort to gain the interest of new people that may be in guild and out of fun. E.g the other day Sylva was chatting to Kas about the companions saying he does not do elves. :roll: the conversation continued mildly until someone commented they felt uncomfortable and I backed off.

As for RP events I switch to a window where GC doesn't show, only Say, Emote, Tell, & Group Chat. That is primarily the reason yesterday what was said in Guild Chat by S'har did not register with me that it was meant for the Guild Chat to Shush, I assumed it was in regard to griefing around the area that the RP event was occurring in which I would have supported if it were the case.

But it wouldn't hurt to have some kind of guidelines laid out (if not already) for managers which would help in Chat Moderation. Last night I was only Manager on and someone was repeatedly typing P.E.N.I.S and then going on about how they preferred uncircumcised because it was more gentle or some crap. I would have liked to whisper the young dude and told him to cut it out, but was not sure where the guild stood on Guild Chat language and how much is tolerated.

I do know abuse is not allowed, nor slurs of any kinds, religious or political debate, but this goes without saying.

I personally prefer only innuendo be allowed in Guild Chat and mild swearing or the occasional F*ck maybe, but it really doesnt bother me but last night was unnecessary and I wanted to stop it but wasn't sure is all.

Sylas, in the situation that you said you experienced, the best thing to do is to politely inform the individual involved that they should stop as anything that is making others uncomfortable in guild chat should be stopped. If you feel like something should not be said, or you feel uncomfortable to what a person is telling in guild chat you can politely tell them to shut up.

*noted* I can ignore stuff for myself but would enforce if it was a guild chat priority for the sake of others.