ElsyNov 30, 2016Nov 30, 2016 at 04:33 AM
#1
Elsy - Today at 8:47 PM
Test
Alijham - Today at 8:48 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
WildCat - Today at 8:48 PM
Failed
DragonLordX - Today at 8:48 PM
Test 321
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 8:48 PM
Elsy you made the private rank purps
Elsy - Today at 8:48 PM
i deed
OK so I'm thinking let's have Dragon start with what he wants to say
Kashya - Today at 8:50 PM
Sounds good.
DragonLordX - Today at 8:51 PM
I just want to start with saying, I think the incident on friday got a little crazy and heated and a little unfairly judged. I did feel kind of corned between the three or four people going at me, so I got a little defensive.
Elsy - Today at 8:52 PM
I think that's fair. There were about 4 of us that jumped in. I tend to because well, I feel obligated to. It may be better to coordinate in officer chat what 1-2 people should handle the situation if we all happen to be online and paying attention.
WildCat - Today at 8:54 PM
I can see how it can be easy to become defensive if everyone started saying stuff to you
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 8:55 PM
I will agree that there were several of us who jumped. On the other hand, it was a rather personal matter for some people of the guild, possibly including people who didn't speak up. On yet another hand, I can understand the defensiveness, though some things can be hard to overlook as just a defensive comment.
Alijham - Today at 8:56 PM
I agree 100% with Tal
Kashya - Today at 8:57 PM
I attempted to not sound so hostile, more factual than anything, but I still understand how someone could feel jumped in a situation such as that one. I'm going to agree with Lydia, however; this is a matter that several people did/could have been offended by, and action needed to be taken to make sure it was prevented in the future. Things like this are incredibly touchey, and need to be treated as such.
Alijham - Today at 8:57 PM
^
Elsy - Today at 8:58 PM
So, what do we do when the issue is one that strikes officers personally? Is everyone able to jump in? Do only those it really affects get to speak, while the others hang back and monitor to make sure it stays discussion and not argument?
Alijham - Today at 8:59 PM
I think as many people as they want can speak, just as long as there is SOMEONE monitoring to make sure it doesn't get hostile.
Kashya - Today at 8:59 PM
Hm. For me, it was a law thing; I'm used to calling somebody out for saying offensive things like that because here, you can literally lose your job in two seconds by saying that word. So, it doesn't really bother me to have just one officer on the case.
WildCat - Today at 8:59 PM
I believe at least one officer needs to comment, and the others should watch the conversation
DragonLordX - Today at 8:59 PM
I agree with Tylee
Elsy - Today at 8:59 PM
@WildCat For clarification, is there a maximum you think should be on the situation?
Alijham - Today at 9:00 PM
I don't think more than two need to comment.
Otherwise it gets a little jumpy.
WildCat - Today at 9:00 PM
For me, depends on the situation. But if it starts to grow like that, pull it out of the public channel
Elsy - Today at 9:00 PM
Definitely pull it out of public channel if it starts to get to be the whole admin team jumping up, yes. I do tend to think having all of the admin team on one person is a bit overkill.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:01 PM
I don't disagree with the limitation on handling it publicly. The trickiest part of those situations is when it strikes a personal chord with an officer. But yeah, having all of us is pretty overkill.
WildCat - Today at 9:01 PM
I agree with Elsy. I feel that if may cause some to feel bullied, ect.
I feel everyone can express their thoughts, but handling the issue should be no more than one or two and private
Alijham - Today at 9:02 PM
I think normally we are very good with only having one or two people handle these kinds of things, but in this one in particular it hit a nerve with many officers and that's why this happened.
Elsy - Today at 9:02 PM
I do agree
So, everyone can share their opinion, but only 1-2 should be handling it on a "Hey don't do that" front?
WildCat - Today at 9:02 PM
Right
Alijham - Today at 9:02 PM
Totally
DragonLordX - Today at 9:02 PM
Also I kind of want to point out. Whille I get that it is offensive to some, not everyone always understands words like that can be super offensive. I honestly didn't think much of it, had I known I wouldn't of posted the meme.
Elsy - Today at 9:03 PM
Well, would it be benificial to clarify in the RoC certain words that won't fly? It's written vaguely at the moment and can be better specified.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:03 PM
And I agree on that, I think it wouldn't of gone so far if someone just pulled me to the side and said "Hey don't say that man"
WildCat - Today at 9:03 PM
And with other things, call them out in the private message. If you bring it up in front of a bunch of people, the accused (?) may feel worse about it and be more tempted to lash out
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
Agreed Dragon & Ty(edited)
DragonLordX - Today at 9:04 PM
That was something I was actually going to suggest Elsy
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
Again, that's something we usually do just
That really struck a personal nerve with people
Kashya - Today at 9:04 PM
In the contemporary world we live in, I'm not even going to ribbon this up: I think it's a pretty understood thing that the word spoken is a big no-go.
Alijham - Today at 9:04 PM
I completely agree
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
^I do agree with that, admittedly
Kashya - Today at 9:05 PM
So, I think that's a bit of an excuse, but.
WildCat - Today at 9:05 PM
I agree
Kashya - Today at 9:05 PM
That's my personal philosophy.
Anyways.
WildCat - Today at 9:05 PM
Even if you thing something "might be offensive," just play it safe and don't post
Elsy - Today at 9:05 PM
^
But I do know there are people in other countries where it's a bit different. So, being more explicit in our RoC might still be beneficial to us in the future.
Not that I feel it should necessarily effect this case
But you know
WildCat - Today at 9:06 PM
agreed
Elsy - Today at 9:06 PM
We don't have to call out specific words, but categories of words that are basically instant strikes
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:06 PM
If it can help prevent further instances of this. I would advise putting the list in a spoiler box, personally, but.
Alijham - Today at 9:06 PM
I agree
Elsy - Today at 9:06 PM
Well yes, if we are going to do specific words
Kashya - Today at 9:07 PM
"Racial slurs, homosexual slurs, or any other term that pertains to the harassment of one's lifestyle or culture." I don't know.
Elsy - Today at 9:07 PM
^
Alijham - Today at 9:07 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
Elsy - Today at 9:07 PM
Slurs towards any groups of people including but not limited to race, sexuality, religion, etc.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:08 PM
I'm of a mind to not specify "homose-- yeah, that's good, Elsy
Kashya - Today at 9:09 PM
Thanks. That words it better.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:09 PM
Hmm...not really Kashya. Specially when people use the word in so many different ways, some even use for empowerment as odd as that sounds.
Alijham - Today at 9:09 PM
I completely disagree.
WildCat - Today at 9:09 PM
I like the added "not limited to"
Kashya - Today at 9:09 PM
Dragon, I really hate to push this again, but I can literally lose my job and be chaptered out just by saying that word. If I can get chaptered out and lose any hopes of getting a job in the future from that word, it's probably a good idea not to say it.
WildCat - Today at 9:10 PM
And I really disagree
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:10 PM
In the words of Tim Minchin
"And it's important that we all respect
That if these people should happen to choose
To reclaim the word as their own
It doesn't meant the rest of you have a right to its use"(edited)
Kashya - Today at 9:10 PM
In fact, it's probably a good idea to assume it should just be left unspoken.
Elsy - Today at 9:10 PM
While I too disagree with Dragon, is it useful for us to push this point?
I've been more explicit in the rules which covers our bases on this point in the future.
WildCat - Today at 9:11 PM
I'm not sure why we need to continue this point. Seems clear to me
Kashya - Today at 9:12 PM
I honestly don't even know if clarifying this in the rules would help. It already states in the rules:
"Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ageism, ableism, religious and political discrimination and intolerance, bullying, and all other forms of prejudice and harassment are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN OOC. Your characters can be any of these, but you as a player CANNOT."
WildCat - Today at 9:12 PM
^
Alijham - Today at 9:12 PM
I think our rules are very clear, yeah.
Kashya - Today at 9:12 PM
So, we're already enforcing this rule right now.
Elsy - Today at 9:13 PM
The reason why I feel it's a grey area is because the intent wasn't necessarily to be homophobic.
Which is why I feel it should be clarified that under NO CIRCUMSTANCE, jokes included
would it be acceptable
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:13 PM
I think that's a good addition
DragonLordX - Today at 9:13 PM
^ If you read the rule it does sound like it is pointing on being intentially trying to insult someone
Kashya - Today at 9:14 PM
I know the essence of the joke wasn't meant to be insulting, but most racial discriminative terms are pretty self-explained as an insult. Which is why I don't think this should be treated any differently. But, aye, I think it wouldn't hurt to clarify.
Elsy - Today at 9:14 PM
So right below the one Kashya just quoted I now have:
"Slurs or derogatory words towards any groups of people, including but not limited to OOC race, sexuality, religion, etc., are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN both IC and OOC. This means that these words are not allowed at all, even in the form of jokes."
I said OOC race, etc, just because something like "ash skins" isn't exactly a slur I think people should be flipping out over.
You know, IC racial slurs
DragonLordX - Today at 9:16 PM
Well the context of the joke it's self wasen't even really meant to be homphobic.
It was play on the competive gaming scene
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:17 PM
Maybe specify "Real World slurs or..." just to make it painfully clear that we're saying in game stuff is fine?(edited)
Alijham - Today at 9:17 PM
Agreed Tal
I easily read it wrong at first
Kashya - Today at 9:19 PM
I agree with Lydia.
Dragon, I'm not a bullshitter, so I'll tell it to you directly. If it were me, I wouldn't even have opted to put this up for debate. That's just how undebatable I think this entire topic is. It's just the most direct yes/no thing in the world.
That's not me trying to be rude. That's just how I feel on the topic.
Alijham - Today at 9:19 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth
Elsy - Today at 9:19 PM
Yeah Dragon I do think everyone here doesn't accept the "it was a joke" as a defense.
You're an adult. You should know better.
Revision: Slurs or derogatory words towards any groups of people, including but not limited to race, sexuality, religion, etc., are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN both IC and OOC (though non real world insults targeted only towards made-up TES universe groups of people are allowed, ex: "Ash Skins" for Dunmer). This means that these words are not allowed at all, even in the form of jokes.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:20 PM
I'll give that a seal of approval, Elsy.
Alijham - Today at 9:20 PM
I like!
Elsy - Today at 9:20 PM
Added
Kashya - Today at 9:20 PM
Sounds good.
Maybe one day, the ROC will be as long as my Guard's Guide. wink
Elsy - Today at 9:21 PM
stop
Alijham - Today at 9:21 PM
why.
Kashya - Today at 9:21 PM
Dude that guide is my pride and joy.
Elsy - Today at 9:22 PM
Let's stay on topic here and let Dragon respond
Alijham - Today at 9:22 PM
It's beautiful
Kashya - Today at 9:22 PM
BUT anyways back on topic. :l
Alijham - Today at 9:22 PM
Yea
DragonLordX - Today at 9:28 PM
Again not everyone knows how offenseive it can be, specially when it gets disensatized from massive use. And Being an Adult dosen't nessecarily mean I know every thing about the world. You guys kind of make like everyone pays attenction to all of this, but not all of us do.
I personally don't pay attenction much outside of my own interest and just do me.
Elsy - Today at 9:29 PM
Eh, I'm still of the mind that not knowing how offensive it is isn't really a great excuse. I do think the others are as well. Which makes me feel we're all at an impass, and that the topic should be dropped, considering I just wrote in a more specific rule.
Alijham - Today at 9:29 PM
^
WildCat - Today at 9:29 PM
So how about this, did you know that the word could be offensive or was offensive at any point in time?
when you posted the meme?
Elsy - Today at 9:30 PM
^
Have you ever seen or heard it used in an offensive matter before posting that?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:32 PM
Honestly outside of just hearing people use it as a go to insult , in school or in video games...etc.
Elsy - Today at 9:32 PM
Well, that there means yes, doesn't it?
Kashya - Today at 9:32 PM
Then you should know well enough.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:32 PM
Well thats a in between
Elsy - Today at 9:32 PM
Not really.
You knew it was used in an offensive way before posting it. I think our answer is there.
Alijham - Today at 9:32 PM
That is absolutely a yes, can we please stop beating around the bush?
WildCat - Today at 9:32 PM
There is no in between
Kashya - Today at 9:32 PM
Guy. Just take the L.
You were wrong. It happens.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:33 PM
I'm not saying I wasen't wrong that much is obvious
I'm saying I didn't look to much into it.
Elsy - Today at 9:34 PM
Well, suppose a good thing to note in the future, just to be a bit more sensitive with your language.
Can we move on now?
WildCat - Today at 9:34 PM
So I don't understand why you are fighting about it
Lets
Elsy - Today at 9:37 PM
Then the only question is, was the strike deserved or should a warning be given before the first strike?
Alijham - Today at 9:37 PM
It was deserved.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:37 PM
I'm of a mind with Ali.
Elsy - Today at 9:37 PM
Should a warning be given before the first strike, in this case, or in any case?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:38 PM
I still disagree with it being a strike
Alijham - Today at 9:38 PM
I think no warnings are necessary in the case of slurs and whatnot.(edited)
It should be an immediate strike, in my opinion.
WildCat - Today at 9:39 PM
I feel like the warning or instant strike should depend on the case
Elsy - Today at 9:39 PM
Alright then. Does this case warrant an instant strike or a warning?(edited)
Alijham - Today at 9:39 PM
A strike, methinks.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:40 PM
I feel like it deserves a strike because even if in this day and age some of the meaning has been lost to some parts of culture, even in that culture it carries the weight of an insult.
Elsy - Today at 9:40 PM
I agree.
@WildCat? I believe @Kashya went to sleep.
WildCat - Today at 9:41 PM
I agree with the strike
Elsy - Today at 9:41 PM
Well baring the fact that Kashya went to sleep, it seems the vote is unanymous.
Oh, and the fact that Stripes is asleep.
That's still a 4/6 majority, even if the other two voted no.
Or uh. 2/3 if you wanna be all math about it.
WildCat - Today at 9:43 PM
gross math stuffs
Elsy - Today at 9:43 PM
^
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:43 PM
There's a reason "math" is a swear in Adventure Time
Elsy - Today at 9:44 PM
@DragonLordX do you have any further comments or defenses? Is there anything more (besides your not knowing that we've already talked a lot on) that you feel should be considered?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:45 PM
Just curious why is strongly felt I need a strike for something that wasen't meant to offend anyone
Alijham - Today at 9:45 PM
We already went over this, I thought.
Elsy - Today at 9:45 PM
Here, I can frame it up
Alijham - Today at 9:45 PM
Even if it wasn't particularly meant, it's common knowledge that it is a no-go.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:45 PM
no it's really not
But you brush my point as just beating around the bush
Elsy - Today at 9:46 PM
Eh Dragon, it is.
It is fairly common knowledge, as you yourself even said you knew that it had been used in offensive ways beforehand.
You offended a lot of people in the chat, even if your intent was a joke, which warrants the strike.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:46 PM
In offenseive ways, but not of how dire it is.
Elsy - Today at 9:47 PM
I don't understand?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:50 PM
Why I was saying something in between, to me I mean I thought it more of just thing like you know "idiot" and "retard". Just something numbskulls say because they think it's hurtful, or when their angry. Which we've said similar things in jokes before
Alijham - Today at 9:50 PM
As a side note, retard is also unacceptable.
Elsy - Today at 9:50 PM
Ahh. Well, I personally refrain from using "retard" for the same reason.
Yeah.
goes to edit new rules to include mental and physical ability
WildCat - Today at 9:51 PM
In regard to "how dire it is," people cannot pick how offended or hurt someone is because of their actions.
Alijham - Today at 9:51 PM
^
WildCat - Today at 9:51 PM
I feel that point shouldn't even be up for debate.
Alijham - Today at 9:52 PM
I agree
DragonLordX - Today at 9:52 PM
Tylee that was not even my point
Elsy - Today at 9:52 PM
Then can you clarify?
WildCat - Today at 9:52 PM
Okay, that is how we have been understanding your wording
DragonLordX - Today at 9:52 PM
I was ignorant on the full meaning and that I do admit.
Elsy - Today at 9:53 PM
Hm, so you knew it as a term the Internet used and didn't realize it was an a slur to homosexuals? Then why did you tell us earlier that you'd heard/seen it used as an offensive term before?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:54 PM
Let me clarify more that
I've heard it used as a insult, but I've never seen/heard directly used to a perosn who is homosexual.
Elsy - Today at 9:54 PM
Can I then ask, what context have you heard it used as an insult before? Like in what sort of situation(edited)
DragonLordX - Today at 9:54 PM
Like on CoD
People say random stuff like "You fucking faggot" when they killed or in league when you are not doing so well and there always has to be that one guy that needs to be a jerk(edited)
WildCat - Today at 9:55 PM
I personally have not heard it used directly in person, but that did not mean I needed to for me to know it was an insult
Elsy - Today at 9:58 PM
So in light of the clarification, do the officers believe it should be a warning or a strike?
Alijham - Today at 9:58 PM
Yes
WildCat - Today at 9:58 PM
I don't feel like anything has changed my vote or view on the matter.
Alijham - Today at 9:59 PM
I just re-read that oops I mean yes, a strike
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:59 PM
I feel like nothing has changed. I would refer back to my last comment.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 10:00 PM
Okay, not the one about math. I would refer back to my last relevant comment.
Elsy - Today at 10:02 PM
Hm. It's a little more difficult for me, but I think I'd have to also go with a strike, because it offended a lot of people, and I still feel it was known the word was an insult to some degree. That and, honestly, it's one strike. It'd be a bit different if it was the third. I don't necessarily expect Dragon to have any more.
WildCat - Today at 10:03 PM
^
DragonLordX - Today at 10:07 PM
Well I guess that's that then. And no I don't plan on getting anymore, didn't really plan on getting one.
Elsy - Today at 10:11 PM
In the future if you'd like me to clarify more specifically (like actually list words) what slurs would be totally unacceptable, you can message me and I'll gladly do that. I don't want you to get another strike, I don't really expect you to. And I understand that it's imposisble to know all contexts of words and that certain cultures are different with how they use words. Just be sure to be more sensitive in the future with those sorts of things and again, if you have any questions or suspect something might be more offensive than the context in which you know it as, I'm sure any number of the officers would be willing to look at the word and decide if it is appropriate, and clarify as needed if it isn't.
Any further comments?
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 10:15 PM
I'm good.
WildCat - Today at 10:15 PM
Nope
Alijham - Today at 10:15 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
Elsy - Today at 10:15 PM
@DragonLordX?
DragonLordX - Today at 10:20 PM
Alright then will do in the future, and try to be more careful.
Elsy - Today at 10:20 PM
Thank you, and really thank you for discussing with us and being responsive and understanding of our decisions.
These things don't always go so smoothly, so you being open to things we were saying was really helpful and appreciated.
DragonLordX - Today at 10:22 PM
Sorry if my clarficaiton need to be more detailed a lot. I've been kind of anti-social most of my life, so I never really got good at express what I'm trying to say.
Elsy - Today at 10:22 PM
No worries. I'm sure working in retail and having to deal with people all day doesn't help. :stuck_out_tongue: Would sure as hell burn me out.
DragonLordX - Today at 10:24 PM
That, followed by my lack of any good sleep due to scheduling.
Elsy - Today at 10:24 PM
Go get some sleep dude
Test
Alijham - Today at 8:48 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
WildCat - Today at 8:48 PM
Failed
DragonLordX - Today at 8:48 PM
Test 321
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 8:48 PM
Elsy you made the private rank purps
Elsy - Today at 8:48 PM
i deed
OK so I'm thinking let's have Dragon start with what he wants to say
Kashya - Today at 8:50 PM
Sounds good.
DragonLordX - Today at 8:51 PM
I just want to start with saying, I think the incident on friday got a little crazy and heated and a little unfairly judged. I did feel kind of corned between the three or four people going at me, so I got a little defensive.
Elsy - Today at 8:52 PM
I think that's fair. There were about 4 of us that jumped in. I tend to because well, I feel obligated to. It may be better to coordinate in officer chat what 1-2 people should handle the situation if we all happen to be online and paying attention.
WildCat - Today at 8:54 PM
I can see how it can be easy to become defensive if everyone started saying stuff to you
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 8:55 PM
I will agree that there were several of us who jumped. On the other hand, it was a rather personal matter for some people of the guild, possibly including people who didn't speak up. On yet another hand, I can understand the defensiveness, though some things can be hard to overlook as just a defensive comment.
Alijham - Today at 8:56 PM
I agree 100% with Tal
Kashya - Today at 8:57 PM
I attempted to not sound so hostile, more factual than anything, but I still understand how someone could feel jumped in a situation such as that one. I'm going to agree with Lydia, however; this is a matter that several people did/could have been offended by, and action needed to be taken to make sure it was prevented in the future. Things like this are incredibly touchey, and need to be treated as such.
Alijham - Today at 8:57 PM
^
Elsy - Today at 8:58 PM
So, what do we do when the issue is one that strikes officers personally? Is everyone able to jump in? Do only those it really affects get to speak, while the others hang back and monitor to make sure it stays discussion and not argument?
Alijham - Today at 8:59 PM
I think as many people as they want can speak, just as long as there is SOMEONE monitoring to make sure it doesn't get hostile.
Kashya - Today at 8:59 PM
Hm. For me, it was a law thing; I'm used to calling somebody out for saying offensive things like that because here, you can literally lose your job in two seconds by saying that word. So, it doesn't really bother me to have just one officer on the case.
WildCat - Today at 8:59 PM
I believe at least one officer needs to comment, and the others should watch the conversation
DragonLordX - Today at 8:59 PM
I agree with Tylee
Elsy - Today at 8:59 PM
@WildCat For clarification, is there a maximum you think should be on the situation?
Alijham - Today at 9:00 PM
I don't think more than two need to comment.
Otherwise it gets a little jumpy.
WildCat - Today at 9:00 PM
For me, depends on the situation. But if it starts to grow like that, pull it out of the public channel
Elsy - Today at 9:00 PM
Definitely pull it out of public channel if it starts to get to be the whole admin team jumping up, yes. I do tend to think having all of the admin team on one person is a bit overkill.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:01 PM
I don't disagree with the limitation on handling it publicly. The trickiest part of those situations is when it strikes a personal chord with an officer. But yeah, having all of us is pretty overkill.
WildCat - Today at 9:01 PM
I agree with Elsy. I feel that if may cause some to feel bullied, ect.
I feel everyone can express their thoughts, but handling the issue should be no more than one or two and private
Alijham - Today at 9:02 PM
I think normally we are very good with only having one or two people handle these kinds of things, but in this one in particular it hit a nerve with many officers and that's why this happened.
Elsy - Today at 9:02 PM
I do agree
So, everyone can share their opinion, but only 1-2 should be handling it on a "Hey don't do that" front?
WildCat - Today at 9:02 PM
Right
Alijham - Today at 9:02 PM
Totally
DragonLordX - Today at 9:02 PM
Also I kind of want to point out. Whille I get that it is offensive to some, not everyone always understands words like that can be super offensive. I honestly didn't think much of it, had I known I wouldn't of posted the meme.
Elsy - Today at 9:03 PM
Well, would it be benificial to clarify in the RoC certain words that won't fly? It's written vaguely at the moment and can be better specified.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:03 PM
And I agree on that, I think it wouldn't of gone so far if someone just pulled me to the side and said "Hey don't say that man"
WildCat - Today at 9:03 PM
And with other things, call them out in the private message. If you bring it up in front of a bunch of people, the accused (?) may feel worse about it and be more tempted to lash out
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
Agreed Dragon & Ty(edited)
DragonLordX - Today at 9:04 PM
That was something I was actually going to suggest Elsy
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
Again, that's something we usually do just
That really struck a personal nerve with people
Kashya - Today at 9:04 PM
In the contemporary world we live in, I'm not even going to ribbon this up: I think it's a pretty understood thing that the word spoken is a big no-go.
Alijham - Today at 9:04 PM
I completely agree
Elsy - Today at 9:04 PM
^I do agree with that, admittedly
Kashya - Today at 9:05 PM
So, I think that's a bit of an excuse, but.
WildCat - Today at 9:05 PM
I agree
Kashya - Today at 9:05 PM
That's my personal philosophy.
Anyways.
WildCat - Today at 9:05 PM
Even if you thing something "might be offensive," just play it safe and don't post
Elsy - Today at 9:05 PM
^
But I do know there are people in other countries where it's a bit different. So, being more explicit in our RoC might still be beneficial to us in the future.
Not that I feel it should necessarily effect this case
But you know
WildCat - Today at 9:06 PM
agreed
Elsy - Today at 9:06 PM
We don't have to call out specific words, but categories of words that are basically instant strikes
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:06 PM
If it can help prevent further instances of this. I would advise putting the list in a spoiler box, personally, but.
Alijham - Today at 9:06 PM
I agree
Elsy - Today at 9:06 PM
Well yes, if we are going to do specific words
Kashya - Today at 9:07 PM
"Racial slurs, homosexual slurs, or any other term that pertains to the harassment of one's lifestyle or culture." I don't know.
Elsy - Today at 9:07 PM
^
Alijham - Today at 9:07 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
Elsy - Today at 9:07 PM
Slurs towards any groups of people including but not limited to race, sexuality, religion, etc.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:08 PM
I'm of a mind to not specify "homose-- yeah, that's good, Elsy
Kashya - Today at 9:09 PM
Thanks. That words it better.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:09 PM
Hmm...not really Kashya. Specially when people use the word in so many different ways, some even use for empowerment as odd as that sounds.
Alijham - Today at 9:09 PM
I completely disagree.
WildCat - Today at 9:09 PM
I like the added "not limited to"
Kashya - Today at 9:09 PM
Dragon, I really hate to push this again, but I can literally lose my job and be chaptered out just by saying that word. If I can get chaptered out and lose any hopes of getting a job in the future from that word, it's probably a good idea not to say it.
WildCat - Today at 9:10 PM
And I really disagree
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:10 PM
In the words of Tim Minchin
"And it's important that we all respect
That if these people should happen to choose
To reclaim the word as their own
It doesn't meant the rest of you have a right to its use"(edited)
Kashya - Today at 9:10 PM
In fact, it's probably a good idea to assume it should just be left unspoken.
Elsy - Today at 9:10 PM
While I too disagree with Dragon, is it useful for us to push this point?
I've been more explicit in the rules which covers our bases on this point in the future.
WildCat - Today at 9:11 PM
I'm not sure why we need to continue this point. Seems clear to me
Kashya - Today at 9:12 PM
I honestly don't even know if clarifying this in the rules would help. It already states in the rules:
"Racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ageism, ableism, religious and political discrimination and intolerance, bullying, and all other forms of prejudice and harassment are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN OOC. Your characters can be any of these, but you as a player CANNOT."
WildCat - Today at 9:12 PM
^
Alijham - Today at 9:12 PM
I think our rules are very clear, yeah.
Kashya - Today at 9:12 PM
So, we're already enforcing this rule right now.
Elsy - Today at 9:13 PM
The reason why I feel it's a grey area is because the intent wasn't necessarily to be homophobic.
Which is why I feel it should be clarified that under NO CIRCUMSTANCE, jokes included
would it be acceptable
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:13 PM
I think that's a good addition
DragonLordX - Today at 9:13 PM
^ If you read the rule it does sound like it is pointing on being intentially trying to insult someone
Kashya - Today at 9:14 PM
I know the essence of the joke wasn't meant to be insulting, but most racial discriminative terms are pretty self-explained as an insult. Which is why I don't think this should be treated any differently. But, aye, I think it wouldn't hurt to clarify.
Elsy - Today at 9:14 PM
So right below the one Kashya just quoted I now have:
"Slurs or derogatory words towards any groups of people, including but not limited to OOC race, sexuality, religion, etc., are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN both IC and OOC. This means that these words are not allowed at all, even in the form of jokes."
I said OOC race, etc, just because something like "ash skins" isn't exactly a slur I think people should be flipping out over.
You know, IC racial slurs
DragonLordX - Today at 9:16 PM
Well the context of the joke it's self wasen't even really meant to be homphobic.
It was play on the competive gaming scene
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:17 PM
Maybe specify "Real World slurs or..." just to make it painfully clear that we're saying in game stuff is fine?(edited)
Alijham - Today at 9:17 PM
Agreed Tal
I easily read it wrong at first
Kashya - Today at 9:19 PM
I agree with Lydia.
Dragon, I'm not a bullshitter, so I'll tell it to you directly. If it were me, I wouldn't even have opted to put this up for debate. That's just how undebatable I think this entire topic is. It's just the most direct yes/no thing in the world.
That's not me trying to be rude. That's just how I feel on the topic.
Alijham - Today at 9:19 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth
Elsy - Today at 9:19 PM
Yeah Dragon I do think everyone here doesn't accept the "it was a joke" as a defense.
You're an adult. You should know better.
Revision: Slurs or derogatory words towards any groups of people, including but not limited to race, sexuality, religion, etc., are STRICTLY FORBIDDEN both IC and OOC (though non real world insults targeted only towards made-up TES universe groups of people are allowed, ex: "Ash Skins" for Dunmer). This means that these words are not allowed at all, even in the form of jokes.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:20 PM
I'll give that a seal of approval, Elsy.
Alijham - Today at 9:20 PM
I like!
Elsy - Today at 9:20 PM
Added
Kashya - Today at 9:20 PM
Sounds good.
Maybe one day, the ROC will be as long as my Guard's Guide. wink
Elsy - Today at 9:21 PM
stop
Alijham - Today at 9:21 PM
why.
Kashya - Today at 9:21 PM
Dude that guide is my pride and joy.
Elsy - Today at 9:22 PM
Let's stay on topic here and let Dragon respond
Alijham - Today at 9:22 PM
It's beautiful
Kashya - Today at 9:22 PM
BUT anyways back on topic. :l
Alijham - Today at 9:22 PM
Yea
DragonLordX - Today at 9:28 PM
Again not everyone knows how offenseive it can be, specially when it gets disensatized from massive use. And Being an Adult dosen't nessecarily mean I know every thing about the world. You guys kind of make like everyone pays attenction to all of this, but not all of us do.
I personally don't pay attenction much outside of my own interest and just do me.
Elsy - Today at 9:29 PM
Eh, I'm still of the mind that not knowing how offensive it is isn't really a great excuse. I do think the others are as well. Which makes me feel we're all at an impass, and that the topic should be dropped, considering I just wrote in a more specific rule.
Alijham - Today at 9:29 PM
^
WildCat - Today at 9:29 PM
So how about this, did you know that the word could be offensive or was offensive at any point in time?
when you posted the meme?
Elsy - Today at 9:30 PM
^
Have you ever seen or heard it used in an offensive matter before posting that?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:32 PM
Honestly outside of just hearing people use it as a go to insult , in school or in video games...etc.
Elsy - Today at 9:32 PM
Well, that there means yes, doesn't it?
Kashya - Today at 9:32 PM
Then you should know well enough.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:32 PM
Well thats a in between
Elsy - Today at 9:32 PM
Not really.
You knew it was used in an offensive way before posting it. I think our answer is there.
Alijham - Today at 9:32 PM
That is absolutely a yes, can we please stop beating around the bush?
WildCat - Today at 9:32 PM
There is no in between
Kashya - Today at 9:32 PM
Guy. Just take the L.
You were wrong. It happens.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:33 PM
I'm not saying I wasen't wrong that much is obvious
I'm saying I didn't look to much into it.
Elsy - Today at 9:34 PM
Well, suppose a good thing to note in the future, just to be a bit more sensitive with your language.
Can we move on now?
WildCat - Today at 9:34 PM
So I don't understand why you are fighting about it
Lets
Elsy - Today at 9:37 PM
Then the only question is, was the strike deserved or should a warning be given before the first strike?
Alijham - Today at 9:37 PM
It was deserved.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:37 PM
I'm of a mind with Ali.
Elsy - Today at 9:37 PM
Should a warning be given before the first strike, in this case, or in any case?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:38 PM
I still disagree with it being a strike
Alijham - Today at 9:38 PM
I think no warnings are necessary in the case of slurs and whatnot.(edited)
It should be an immediate strike, in my opinion.
WildCat - Today at 9:39 PM
I feel like the warning or instant strike should depend on the case
Elsy - Today at 9:39 PM
Alright then. Does this case warrant an instant strike or a warning?(edited)
Alijham - Today at 9:39 PM
A strike, methinks.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:40 PM
I feel like it deserves a strike because even if in this day and age some of the meaning has been lost to some parts of culture, even in that culture it carries the weight of an insult.
Elsy - Today at 9:40 PM
I agree.
@WildCat? I believe @Kashya went to sleep.
WildCat - Today at 9:41 PM
I agree with the strike
Elsy - Today at 9:41 PM
Well baring the fact that Kashya went to sleep, it seems the vote is unanymous.
Oh, and the fact that Stripes is asleep.
That's still a 4/6 majority, even if the other two voted no.
Or uh. 2/3 if you wanna be all math about it.
WildCat - Today at 9:43 PM
gross math stuffs
Elsy - Today at 9:43 PM
^
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:43 PM
There's a reason "math" is a swear in Adventure Time
Elsy - Today at 9:44 PM
@DragonLordX do you have any further comments or defenses? Is there anything more (besides your not knowing that we've already talked a lot on) that you feel should be considered?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:45 PM
Just curious why is strongly felt I need a strike for something that wasen't meant to offend anyone
Alijham - Today at 9:45 PM
We already went over this, I thought.
Elsy - Today at 9:45 PM
Here, I can frame it up
Alijham - Today at 9:45 PM
Even if it wasn't particularly meant, it's common knowledge that it is a no-go.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:45 PM
no it's really not
But you brush my point as just beating around the bush
Elsy - Today at 9:46 PM
Eh Dragon, it is.
It is fairly common knowledge, as you yourself even said you knew that it had been used in offensive ways beforehand.
You offended a lot of people in the chat, even if your intent was a joke, which warrants the strike.
DragonLordX - Today at 9:46 PM
In offenseive ways, but not of how dire it is.
Elsy - Today at 9:47 PM
I don't understand?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:50 PM
Why I was saying something in between, to me I mean I thought it more of just thing like you know "idiot" and "retard". Just something numbskulls say because they think it's hurtful, or when their angry. Which we've said similar things in jokes before
Alijham - Today at 9:50 PM
As a side note, retard is also unacceptable.
Elsy - Today at 9:50 PM
Ahh. Well, I personally refrain from using "retard" for the same reason.
Yeah.
goes to edit new rules to include mental and physical ability
WildCat - Today at 9:51 PM
In regard to "how dire it is," people cannot pick how offended or hurt someone is because of their actions.
Alijham - Today at 9:51 PM
^
WildCat - Today at 9:51 PM
I feel that point shouldn't even be up for debate.
Alijham - Today at 9:52 PM
I agree
DragonLordX - Today at 9:52 PM
Tylee that was not even my point
Elsy - Today at 9:52 PM
Then can you clarify?
WildCat - Today at 9:52 PM
Okay, that is how we have been understanding your wording
DragonLordX - Today at 9:52 PM
I was ignorant on the full meaning and that I do admit.
Elsy - Today at 9:53 PM
Hm, so you knew it as a term the Internet used and didn't realize it was an a slur to homosexuals? Then why did you tell us earlier that you'd heard/seen it used as an offensive term before?
DragonLordX - Today at 9:54 PM
Let me clarify more that
I've heard it used as a insult, but I've never seen/heard directly used to a perosn who is homosexual.
Elsy - Today at 9:54 PM
Can I then ask, what context have you heard it used as an insult before? Like in what sort of situation(edited)
DragonLordX - Today at 9:54 PM
Like on CoD
People say random stuff like "You fucking faggot" when they killed or in league when you are not doing so well and there always has to be that one guy that needs to be a jerk(edited)
WildCat - Today at 9:55 PM
I personally have not heard it used directly in person, but that did not mean I needed to for me to know it was an insult
Elsy - Today at 9:58 PM
So in light of the clarification, do the officers believe it should be a warning or a strike?
Alijham - Today at 9:58 PM
Yes
WildCat - Today at 9:58 PM
I don't feel like anything has changed my vote or view on the matter.
Alijham - Today at 9:59 PM
I just re-read that oops I mean yes, a strike
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 9:59 PM
I feel like nothing has changed. I would refer back to my last comment.
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 10:00 PM
Okay, not the one about math. I would refer back to my last relevant comment.
Elsy - Today at 10:02 PM
Hm. It's a little more difficult for me, but I think I'd have to also go with a strike, because it offended a lot of people, and I still feel it was known the word was an insult to some degree. That and, honestly, it's one strike. It'd be a bit different if it was the third. I don't necessarily expect Dragon to have any more.
WildCat - Today at 10:03 PM
^
DragonLordX - Today at 10:07 PM
Well I guess that's that then. And no I don't plan on getting anymore, didn't really plan on getting one.
Elsy - Today at 10:11 PM
In the future if you'd like me to clarify more specifically (like actually list words) what slurs would be totally unacceptable, you can message me and I'll gladly do that. I don't want you to get another strike, I don't really expect you to. And I understand that it's imposisble to know all contexts of words and that certain cultures are different with how they use words. Just be sure to be more sensitive in the future with those sorts of things and again, if you have any questions or suspect something might be more offensive than the context in which you know it as, I'm sure any number of the officers would be willing to look at the word and decide if it is appropriate, and clarify as needed if it isn't.
Any further comments?
Talia (Lydia) - Today at 10:15 PM
I'm good.
WildCat - Today at 10:15 PM
Nope
Alijham - Today at 10:15 PM
:heavy_check_mark:️
Elsy - Today at 10:15 PM
@DragonLordX?
DragonLordX - Today at 10:20 PM
Alright then will do in the future, and try to be more careful.
Elsy - Today at 10:20 PM
Thank you, and really thank you for discussing with us and being responsive and understanding of our decisions.
These things don't always go so smoothly, so you being open to things we were saying was really helpful and appreciated.
DragonLordX - Today at 10:22 PM
Sorry if my clarficaiton need to be more detailed a lot. I've been kind of anti-social most of my life, so I never really got good at express what I'm trying to say.
Elsy - Today at 10:22 PM
No worries. I'm sure working in retail and having to deal with people all day doesn't help. :stuck_out_tongue: Would sure as hell burn me out.
DragonLordX - Today at 10:24 PM
That, followed by my lack of any good sleep due to scheduling.
Elsy - Today at 10:24 PM
Go get some sleep dude